Robert Rippberger and The Power of Storytelling

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June: /Welcome to Story for Good, the
podcast where entertainment meets impact.

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I'm your host, June Neely.

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Anytime I become interested in any subject
I always start off by doing one thing.

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A ton of research and it was no
different when I started digging

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into social impact entertainment.

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That is how I came across the
book, The Power of Storytelling.

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This book neatly explains what
SIE is, breaks down how it's done,

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and why we should understand the
significance of storytelling.

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So it's no surprise that my guest
today is the author of that book.

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Robert Rippberger besides being
an author, Robert is a filmmaker

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and a producer, and he's the co
executive director of the SIE Society.

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If you're wondering if this is the
same Robert that Toby mentioned in

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Episode 1, Then you would be correct.

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So, without further ado,
let's get into the show.

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/Welcome to the show.

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Robert: Thanks so much for having me.

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Look forward to, uh, chatting,
storytelling, impact and,

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everything in between.

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June: So I always like to start off
with, who you are so how did you

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get your start in the entertainment
industry and what brought you

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to Social Impact entertainment?

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Robert: I really just started
in entertainment from a love of

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storytelling, and I used to tell campfire
stories to my friends and my cousins.

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Just kind of make 'em up as I went.

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I grew up in Colorado and, my
parents weren't in entertainment.

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yeah, it was just loving to
tell stories with friends.

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And that was also, when,
show Jackass was on the air.

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And so, going out and making movies
with friends and, whether they.

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antics or whether they were, actual
stories themselves and it just developed.

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And I think by the time I was like maybe
15, I had made like a hundred movies and

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then I made a feature film when I was 16.

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And I was just always clamoring for,
to get it out there more and more.

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I remember calling Walmart and
being like, will you sell my movie?

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And they're like, this is the helpline,
but I like rented a theater in Colorado

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and sold out, like both opening nights,
which ironically at that time paid for

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the entire movie because it was like
on a shoestring budget um And yeah,

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I was always self-funding my movies.

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my parents had an art store and
like local artists could make things

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and then sell them in the store.

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And so I would make candles and then
sell them and then immediately take that

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money and, and buy camera equipment.

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So it really caught me.

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mean, There's so many pieces of
the storytelling process that are.

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hanging out and working with your friends
and collaborating and, making fake blood.

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at one point we were making
like candy glass in our oven.

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My mom's what are you guys doing?

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June: That's amazing.

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Robert: There was no shortage
of of adventure and creativity

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and, a kid with, friends.

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I just kept making films and I think
they kind of slowly got less bad.

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I just started, getting at a higher
level and, bigger distributors.

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I no longer had to call Walmart
and, films were just getting out

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there and at great festivals and
I, also really loved horror films.

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And just at that time, that was when,
Al Gore's films were coming out and.

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climate change the only
thing you could think about.

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And I was like, man, am I
gonna be, playing the cello

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as the Titanic goes down?

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Clearly I'd like to be more involved and
bring light to issues and have impact.

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And so I, I studied philosophy at
UC Berkeley, and the whole thing

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was like an existential crisis.

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It was like, I know what I.

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Does it have meaning?

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Does it have impact?

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Does it change things?

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Can it bring value to people's lives?

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And does it have value to the world?

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I just started asking that question.

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Tobias Deml, he and I met at in, in
school and we started a magazine called

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Cinema of Change and a podcast that was
asking this of does film have an impact?

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And over the course of a number
of interviews, we were like,

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okay, it does have an impact.

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It clearly has an impact.

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And we then met Miguel Sabido.

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in Mexico City, who was the first to
really pioneer, like, I wanna have impact.

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These are the results I wanna have,
and then I'm gonna go out and do

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it, measure it, and replicate it.

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And once we met him and saw his process,
it was like a complete revelation.

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It was, wow.

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this is not only, quotes you would
see on your dentist ceiling, but it's

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like it's actual scientific method.

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Measurable, people's
lives are being changed.

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and that for me is where just the
rubber met the road and, then I wanted

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to share it with so many other people.

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So that was also why, Toby, myself,
and Will Nix, and Rebecca Graham

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Ford um we kind of things we were
doing at the Producers Guild, social

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impact entertainment task force
and brought it over to SIE Society,

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which I run now the sheer purpose.

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Hey, we found this really interesting
stuff and we wanna share it, and we wanna,

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bring people around the campfire and
just yeah, keep expanding the power of,

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and knowledge of how to tell impactful
stories and how to have further impact.

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June: Is this what led you
to writing your book then?

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The Power of Storytelling?

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Robert: Yeah.

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the power of storytelling,
it was two parts.

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I was really getting frustrated
with people saying, oh, you do

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social impact entertainment.

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That's that thing that doesn't make any
money That's like independent films.

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and documentaries There was a court case
in New Mexico where this woman was making

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a documentary and the judge was like,
the business doesn't make sense on this.

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this is not a business.

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This is actually a hobby.

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And so therefore you can't
write off the taxes on it.

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It's a hobby.

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June: Interesting.

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Robert: year after year, we see
articles about this, about how

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documentaries are just struggling.

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couple breakout, make a lot of money.

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There's streamers that, that
buy 'em, but for the most part.

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Seven years of one's life and
and it's just a little bit hard.

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So there were two pieces with the book.

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As I said, I want to really show
people that, they can bring in multiple

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sectors to get their projects going.

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But moreover, that social impact
entertainment is not the art house

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cinemas only, it's the highest
grossing movies of all time.

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And this is everywhere.

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And it's not just, Avatar and having a
huge boost, the environmental movement,

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it's every form of storytelling.

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It all is communication.

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It all has impact.

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And storytellers should be more
aware and whether they want to be

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active in that or passive, but still
aware, it's super important that they

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realize, showing people in different
lights, representation, all of

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that has an effect on an audience.

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And it can be a negative impact or a
positive impact, but it's really up

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to them to steer it, and it's really
to an extent, their responsibility.

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One of the chapters was on 13 Reasons
Why, and that show sought to have.

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A positive impact on mental health,
but they broke one of the cardinal

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rules of depicting suicide in, media,
which is don't actually show it because

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it can then spawn a lot of copycats.

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And there's a lot of research on this.

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This is not new.

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But the show decided to do
otherwise and they did go back

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and re-edit it, which is good.

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but there's just all of
this stuff out there.

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You know, for example,
the depiction of violence.

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People are always wondering,
will there be copycats?

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They found that for the most part, no.

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And also the context of the
violence is extremely important.

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But this is just, things that
storytellers need to be familiar with.

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And also it is a way to have,
resonance, more humanity, more

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reach, and more marketing.

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Nothing like, word of mouth marketing.

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And when a movie matters, people are gonna
talk about it outside of the theater.

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So that's the long version
of, of why I wrote the book.

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But it was really to say these are
the biggest movies of all time.

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Star Wars, Avatar, Titanic.

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these movies are really about
something and their social impact

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entertainment message may be a
little bit more discreet, but that's

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also needed, that's also important.

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June: That's a very important thing
to Note because I do feel like a

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lot of people think of social impact
as Supersize Me and not film like

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Black Panther, which very much
highlighted, Black people in stem.

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Which I after that there was a lot
of like, young women who looked

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up to Shuri and who was like, oh
wow, this is really cool, maybe

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this is something I can get into.

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Robert: Totally.

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June: back to intro of your book,
you state that storytelling is an

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essential part of being human and
that it changes along with us.

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how have you seen, storytelling
evolve over the years and where do

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you hope that it goes in the future?

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Robert: Yeah.

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Studying philosophy was a lot of
asking very basic questions and

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one of those, is what makes a
masterpiece, a masterpiece or what

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makes a great piece of artwork, great.

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And the idea being is it brings people
together to be able to articulate and

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have a common reference point for things
that they're feeling or going through,

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individually or as a culture at the time.

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And so certainly, the way that
films are relevant and the way that

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they have progressed and, whether
it's our relationship to a, to

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technology or whether it's, political
situations, you time, think about a

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movie like Ides of March, at such a
specific point in American politics.

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I think it always is the thing
that, keeps us alive and helps us,

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find hope and find a direction.

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that too is, sometimes you can be
solitary in a room, writing a script,

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but be conversing with the whole world.

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And that I think is very powerful
and also is important that

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these things are a conversation.

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That ask yourself like, why now
with this particular project?

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And I think definitely the evolution of
what I've seen is a lot more willingness

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to be, More heavy handed on social
issues even to an extent where I'm

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like, are we going a little too far?

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Because we wanna still acknowledge
the value of entertainment

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for entertainment's sake.

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t movie by Preston Sturges
called Sullivan's Travels.

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And at the end of that movie, there's
this director who's really, adamant

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about making a social change movie.

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And through a series of misfortunes,
he ends up in a, mistaken identity.

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He ends up in chain gang.

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I.

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And he's brought through this
field at night to this church.

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And on the projector they show this
movie and all of the fellow prisoners

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are just brought to life smiling, jovial.

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And he realizes, ah, there also is
inherent good and value in just simple

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entertainment for entertainment's sake.

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And so I think it then, is up to each
individual artist and also the kinds

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of stories that they wanna tell.

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But I think as long as they're,
it personal, it then, can global.

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June: Very true.

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Yeah.

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When you create stories, as a writer, as a
filmmaker, you usually start off with what

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you want the store to be and you get this
kind of idea, but you don't necessarily

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think of the social responsibility part
of it, the social impact part of it.

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That may come, it may come first, but
it may also, come later in the process.

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And,

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Robert: Yeah.

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June: When it comes to
creating these type of stories.

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'cause you did mention 13 reasons why
and how they did have this intention, but

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the intention ended up turning, to the
negative side versus the positive side.

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you think it's important when, creators
are creating these stories that they think

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of, the effects that this story may have?

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Should they be.

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More aware of the, the responsibility
that comes with telling these stories.

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Robert: I mean there's, you're totally
right in that, yeah, you can start with

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the story or you can start with impact
and I think there's a way to do both.

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And I think James Cameron is a perfect,
model for this is because he obviously

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is a huge environmentalist and he's
looking at what's happening globally

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and he's like, there needs to be a
sort of religious awakening around our

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connection to nature and our valuing of
nature and that it's not something to be.

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warped and turned for our means, but
something that needs to be sustainable.

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And from there he built the story.

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And what he took first is, all
right, I'm gonna take this kind

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of who raw military guy, and I'm
gonna show his slow evolution.

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And that is the change, right?

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You become, you project
yourself onto that character.

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Or you're already there, right?

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You're already part of the Navi and you're
an environmentalist and you're here.

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And then you're understanding more about,
what it is to have this military mindset.

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And so I think there is a way
to do both and that sort of two

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different worlds coming together.

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Another great example of this is Barbie.

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and Titanic.

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I mean, you have drastically
different worlds coming together

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to understand them with change.

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And, Barbie, it's okay,
this is Barbie's world.

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00:13:52,601 --> 00:13:55,471
And then, okay, now this is
Ken's world representing that's,

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00:13:55,491 --> 00:13:57,001
that's more, patriarchal.

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And then the other one that's more
matriarchal and each one is going

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back and forth and not liking it.

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And not liking it, and
then coming together with.

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with a shared meaning and understanding
and what's more powerful than that?

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you capture the entire demographic
and then are able to expand,

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understanding and empathy through a
story that's also wildly entertaining.

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/ June: You're listening to Story for Good.

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00:14:26,290 --> 00:14:28,750
If you like the show, please
follow and subscribe to keep

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00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,430
updated when new episodes drop.

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00:14:30,621 --> 00:14:33,541
And if you're looking for more
social impact goodness, but

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00:14:33,541 --> 00:14:37,781
in your inbox, sign up for our
newsletter at storyforgoodpod.com

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00:14:39,447 --> 00:14:45,597
/ So say I am a filmmaker or a
writer and I am, just coming into

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00:14:45,837 --> 00:14:48,837
learning about what social impact
is and how I can create impact.

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And then you have, SIE society with all
these resources, information, would I

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00:14:54,837 --> 00:14:59,587
start down this path of trying to create
some impact with the work that I'm doing?

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00:15:00,111 --> 00:15:04,984
Robert: Yeah, I think it would be first
knowing your story, I wanna make a story

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about this is what I've been thinking a
lot about is, indigenous women are getting

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kidnapped on reservations in absurd
numbers, and it gets very little focus.

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And, so say that was your story then.

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00:15:23,386 --> 00:15:30,586
SIE society is built to find like-minded
people who care about something, who

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00:15:30,586 --> 00:15:31,866
are working on something similar.

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00:15:32,329 --> 00:15:36,302
at a very base, it's coming to the
conference, it's going the website and

259
00:15:36,302 --> 00:15:37,826
reading all of the different, areas.

260
00:15:38,542 --> 00:15:42,946
as I say that we actually don't have one
yet on, Native Americans, but we should.

261
00:15:43,169 --> 00:15:46,389
It's then saying, okay, I'm interested
in political polarization or

262
00:15:46,529 --> 00:15:51,429
environmentalism, and you can click
into that and see a bunch of playbooks

263
00:15:51,429 --> 00:15:55,469
for other people who have told these
stories, what worked, what didn't,

264
00:15:55,649 --> 00:15:58,789
how they marketed it, how they found
financing, how they found funds.

265
00:15:59,609 --> 00:16:03,029
And when I talked earlier about
how difficult it is to make a

266
00:16:03,229 --> 00:16:05,149
documentary or even a film in general.

267
00:16:05,219 --> 00:16:09,577
SIE Society's ecosystem is built so
that you can find corporate partners,

268
00:16:09,647 --> 00:16:15,531
nonprofit partners, different sectors
that can create a mutually beneficial

269
00:16:15,531 --> 00:16:18,531
relationship for your project.

270
00:16:18,861 --> 00:16:21,857
And so it really focus on, story.

271
00:16:22,171 --> 00:16:27,461
find those partners and, then just be
relentless in, in driving it forward.

272
00:16:28,259 --> 00:16:30,829
June: so you did mention, you know,
which I do wanna bring up is that

273
00:16:30,829 --> 00:16:35,839
you, had your first conference back
in December, which is, where we met.

274
00:16:36,912 --> 00:16:39,172
was a great conference with,
a lot of, great speakers.

275
00:16:39,172 --> 00:16:42,897
Talking about the importance
of, Impact Plus Profit.

276
00:16:43,307 --> 00:16:46,287
how did you guys come up with
that title for the conference and,

277
00:16:46,377 --> 00:16:47,537
what was the importance behind it?

278
00:16:47,914 --> 00:16:51,354
Robert: we're combating this notion
that social impact entertainment is

279
00:16:51,474 --> 00:16:57,994
philanthropy or that it's nonprofit,
and of course it is, but that these

280
00:16:57,994 --> 00:17:00,554
things can be wildly successful.

281
00:17:01,414 --> 00:17:04,897
And also if we look at whether
Academy Awards or or whether it's

282
00:17:04,917 --> 00:17:09,677
box office, we look at the types
of films doing exceptionally well.

283
00:17:10,031 --> 00:17:13,591
Of course, you've got your Marvel
movies and your superhero movies.

284
00:17:14,491 --> 00:17:20,391
But the films that are really doing well
are out there to say something and are

285
00:17:20,391 --> 00:17:26,891
out there to say something in a way that
is not, propaganda, that's not, preaching

286
00:17:27,771 --> 00:17:29,821
that is a way that is humanizing.

287
00:17:30,361 --> 00:17:34,484
And That was our goal is really to,
and will continue to be, our goal

288
00:17:34,744 --> 00:17:36,804
is this needs to be sustainable.

289
00:17:37,174 --> 00:17:40,694
We're all in a capitalist world
and so how can we do both?

290
00:17:40,994 --> 00:17:45,734
How can we have impact, make money
and make more movies or media.

291
00:17:46,321 --> 00:17:49,031
June: And I feel like it's also
important for those bigger movies

292
00:17:49,061 --> 00:17:53,881
that do have, these messages to
actually do something with them.

293
00:17:54,231 --> 00:17:58,871
I don't know how much Marvel creates any
sort of impact campaigns because they

294
00:17:58,871 --> 00:18:03,767
do have especially with like Panther
and, people in stem or with, captain

295
00:18:03,767 --> 00:18:06,447
Marvel with, Just, female empowerment.

296
00:18:06,527 --> 00:18:09,527
I don't know how much on the
backside that they are doing.

297
00:18:09,677 --> 00:18:14,237
it does help that they're creating
these stories, but that impact part

298
00:18:14,247 --> 00:18:16,237
along with it also is beneficial.

299
00:18:16,824 --> 00:18:17,344
Robert: Yeah, I.

300
00:18:17,619 --> 00:18:23,304
Largely you're seeing that emerge
because it's filmmaker driven.

301
00:18:24,207 --> 00:18:26,517
Ryan Coogler cares about
these things immensely.

302
00:18:26,557 --> 00:18:27,757
I mean, he's writing the scripts.

303
00:18:28,087 --> 00:18:30,667
you look at a movie like
Fruitvale Station, was his first.

304
00:18:31,144 --> 00:18:34,007
and so I think in that way,
artists are driving this.

305
00:18:34,244 --> 00:18:35,664
but also to an extent.

306
00:18:36,002 --> 00:18:39,706
Studios will give the audience
what they want and at the same time

307
00:18:39,806 --> 00:18:41,106
put in what they think they want.

308
00:18:42,229 --> 00:18:46,889
So certainly, and especially after Covid,
know, I think there has been a big, big

309
00:18:47,019 --> 00:18:52,009
shift in people saying Hey, we actually
care about social issues in our movies.

310
00:18:52,079 --> 00:18:53,336
Like, that's what we're thinking about.

311
00:18:53,756 --> 00:18:55,472
That's what's, relevant now.

312
00:18:55,597 --> 00:18:58,257
so why not what you know, why not?

313
00:18:58,397 --> 00:19:00,377
But I do also agree with you.

314
00:19:00,497 --> 00:19:04,497
I think there can be and ought to
be a lot more impact campaigns,

315
00:19:04,887 --> 00:19:10,672
included with films, which, take
myriad of shapes, Hey, here's an

316
00:19:10,672 --> 00:19:12,802
organization, that is aligned with us.

317
00:19:12,942 --> 00:19:17,462
And, look, if Marvel's cross promote with
McDonald's, cross-promote with a charity,

318
00:19:17,746 --> 00:19:21,506
no reason that sort of thing can't happen
too, because that's how you reach people.

319
00:19:22,416 --> 00:19:27,201
June: so you've made quite, a few amazing
films like, Seven Days in Syria, Strive,

320
00:19:28,041 --> 00:19:30,301
and then most recently The Inventor.

321
00:19:31,001 --> 00:19:36,601
when it comes to picking a project, how do
you choose which stories you want to tell?

322
00:19:36,661 --> 00:19:38,321
How do the project usually come to you?

323
00:19:38,901 --> 00:19:40,081
What's the process there?

324
00:19:40,191 --> 00:19:40,481
Yeah.

325
00:19:40,842 --> 00:19:43,572
Robert: Yeah, project come
in a whole series of ways.

326
00:19:43,966 --> 00:19:47,976
All over, whether it's my mom saying,
I have a friend who's got a script

327
00:19:48,156 --> 00:19:55,556
or whether it's a Uber driver or I,
I had somebody who wrote me, he is a

328
00:19:55,556 --> 00:20:01,046
French security guard, and he wrote
me through Google Translate, and said,

329
00:20:01,086 --> 00:20:03,766
I have this script idea, and I said.

330
00:20:05,061 --> 00:20:05,591
I'll read it.

331
00:20:05,591 --> 00:20:08,581
And he is like, well, it's all in
French, so I'll Google translate it.

332
00:20:08,581 --> 00:20:11,301
You can read it in English,
can imagine how that looked.

333
00:20:11,801 --> 00:20:15,251
But I loved it and I was like,
look, we're adjust it a bit.

334
00:20:15,351 --> 00:20:16,051
But, but yeah.

335
00:20:16,111 --> 00:20:17,411
And so I ended up buying it from him.

336
00:20:18,087 --> 00:20:18,887
every which way.

337
00:20:18,947 --> 00:20:24,847
And the things for me are I
think what I feel connected to.

338
00:20:25,772 --> 00:20:27,662
And, that can be different, year to year.

339
00:20:28,362 --> 00:20:31,702
but also films that I think
will do well, at the box office

340
00:20:31,702 --> 00:20:33,182
financially with distributors.

341
00:20:33,772 --> 00:20:37,736
That is what yeah, buyers are looking for.

342
00:20:38,412 --> 00:20:42,572
a thing is a movie that I
can visualize getting made.

343
00:20:42,901 --> 00:20:47,934
I think so often people are working
on projects and fighting uphill and

344
00:20:47,934 --> 00:20:49,574
it, and their film doesn't get made.

345
00:20:49,821 --> 00:20:53,524
And so for me, for example, the
script that I bought, the whole

346
00:20:53,524 --> 00:20:54,804
thing takes place on a yacht.

347
00:20:55,344 --> 00:20:59,204
And so I, I see that and I think,
oh, okay, this gives us a lot of.

348
00:20:59,541 --> 00:21:00,181
flexibility.

349
00:21:00,791 --> 00:21:06,631
We're not in a post-apocalyptic
era, with robots and like in space.

350
00:21:07,244 --> 00:21:09,987
I know generally what the
budget will be and then.

351
00:21:10,679 --> 00:21:14,329
If we find somebody who has a yacht and
is gonna let us use it all the better.

352
00:21:14,966 --> 00:21:19,336
so it, it's something that I,
'cause just time is so important and

353
00:21:19,336 --> 00:21:23,712
entertainment, projects can take, I
think on average they say, a film takes

354
00:21:23,712 --> 00:21:25,392
seven years from beginning to end.

355
00:21:25,822 --> 00:21:26,742
so you're forever.

356
00:21:27,362 --> 00:21:30,102
And so I wanna make sure that
okay, two years in, three

357
00:21:30,102 --> 00:21:31,622
years in, I know for a fact.

358
00:21:32,192 --> 00:21:35,482
that time is well spent and I'll
end up with a finished film.

359
00:21:35,982 --> 00:21:39,302
otherwise it's, you start
slowly going in insane.

360
00:21:39,496 --> 00:21:41,776
June: How long was the
process for the inventor?

361
00:21:41,776 --> 00:21:44,056
usually animation takes
a little bit longer.

362
00:21:44,302 --> 00:21:44,962
Robert: 12 years,

363
00:21:45,742 --> 00:21:45,962
June: Wow.

364
00:21:46,556 --> 00:21:48,486
that, that is a really long time.

365
00:21:49,466 --> 00:21:50,806
How did that project come together?

366
00:21:51,086 --> 00:21:55,291
'cause you have some pretty, big names,
voicing it and now it's, you know,

367
00:21:56,031 --> 00:21:58,141
eligible to be, nominated for an Oscar,

368
00:21:58,281 --> 00:22:00,861
Robert: And just yesterday we were
nominated for an award, which is like

369
00:22:00,881 --> 00:22:03,343
the Oscar in, specifically in animation.

370
00:22:03,443 --> 00:22:04,563
So that was, very exciting.

371
00:22:05,293 --> 00:22:05,783
started.

372
00:22:06,958 --> 00:22:10,318
I had my office in Berkeley at the
time, and I got introduced to Jim

373
00:22:10,318 --> 00:22:13,928
Capobianco, who wrote, was nominated for
an Academy award for writing Ratatouille.

374
00:22:15,218 --> 00:22:20,438
And he said, I've got this script and
I previously made a short film about

375
00:22:20,438 --> 00:22:23,718
Leonardo da Vinci and now I wanna make a
feature and I wanna do it in stop motion.

376
00:22:24,321 --> 00:22:27,168
And so actually, at that
point, he didn't have a script.

377
00:22:27,188 --> 00:22:28,008
It was just an idea.

378
00:22:28,953 --> 00:22:31,143
I said, all right, let's,
I think this is amazing.

379
00:22:31,323 --> 00:22:32,343
I'd love to be a part of this.

380
00:22:32,413 --> 00:22:33,623
It's about the meaning of life.

381
00:22:33,773 --> 00:22:36,423
It's about education, it's about art.

382
00:22:37,523 --> 00:22:38,143
I'm on board.

383
00:22:38,963 --> 00:22:43,703
And we then went to Ireland
and found some partners there.

384
00:22:44,213 --> 00:22:46,463
They committed to half of the budget.

385
00:22:47,206 --> 00:22:48,996
Jim was like, I guess I
gotta write a script now.

386
00:22:50,026 --> 00:22:54,206
so he wrote the script and
things ultimately didn't

387
00:22:54,206 --> 00:22:55,486
work out with those partners.

388
00:22:56,025 --> 00:23:00,665
for a long time I was traveling all over
to find the right partner and that was

389
00:23:00,905 --> 00:23:07,924
somebody that I knew could deliver a very
quality film that, jump in, weeds with us.

390
00:23:07,987 --> 00:23:11,960
and fight to get this And also just
that we, liked collaborating with.

391
00:23:12,020 --> 00:23:16,610
And yeah, I went to Belgium,
Denmark, Luxembourg, all, all over.

392
00:23:17,390 --> 00:23:21,010
And ultimately, which is where we wanted
to do the film in the, from the first

393
00:23:21,010 --> 00:23:25,890
place went to France and we partnered
with a studio there called Folio Scope.

394
00:23:26,277 --> 00:23:30,017
and then we put together the whole
studio and raised a bunch of equity.

395
00:23:30,197 --> 00:23:31,577
And I, I was.

396
00:23:32,462 --> 00:23:34,482
hugely involved on all pieces.

397
00:23:34,742 --> 00:23:38,472
And even bringing in all the cast,
we were doing the whole thing on a

398
00:23:38,472 --> 00:23:41,592
modest budget, and so we didn't, we
couldn't afford to have a casting agent.

399
00:23:42,052 --> 00:23:46,529
So I, called CAA and negotiated all
those deals and Universal on board,

400
00:23:46,809 --> 00:23:51,202
I found Universal, negotiated that
deal and even our US distributor.

401
00:23:52,067 --> 00:23:54,780
And it was just kind of like
anything to push our way forward.

402
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:56,810
And, yeah.

403
00:23:56,910 --> 00:24:02,080
And what we have now is a film that is,
just phenomenal and I'm very proud of it.

404
00:24:02,180 --> 00:24:06,530
And Steven Fry, Daisy Ridley,
Marion Cotard, Matt Berry, you

405
00:24:06,530 --> 00:24:08,170
know about the meaning of life.

406
00:24:08,805 --> 00:24:13,502
It's fun, it's it has heart
And, fingers crossed on, on

407
00:24:13,502 --> 00:24:14,782
being nominated for an Oscar.

408
00:24:15,192 --> 00:24:18,732
we're up against films that
have campaigns, in the tens of

409
00:24:18,732 --> 00:24:22,492
millions of dollars, and ours
is a tiny fraction of that.

410
00:24:22,632 --> 00:24:26,262
But, e even then, it's just to
be able to sit in a theater and,

411
00:24:26,372 --> 00:24:30,407
watch the movie that you, read on
page is often worth it in itself.

412
00:24:30,865 --> 00:24:33,590
June: Yeah, 'cause it's definitely a
lot of work that goes into it and I'm

413
00:24:33,590 --> 00:24:37,110
always in awe of people who do stop
motion films 'cause I'm like, I don't

414
00:24:37,140 --> 00:24:44,030
know if I have the patience, but it's
always amazing to see how it comes out.

415
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,010
Robert: when I was younger and
I knew I wanted to do narrative

416
00:24:47,290 --> 00:24:48,560
features and love, love that.

417
00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:52,440
There were two things I was like,
I'll, I won't do documentaries,

418
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,080
which obviously changed.

419
00:24:54,580 --> 00:24:57,480
And the other one was watching
like the behind the scenes on

420
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:58,880
chicken run and being like, Ugh.

421
00:24:59,940 --> 00:25:01,600
Two seconds of animation a day.

422
00:25:01,690 --> 00:25:02,040
Never

423
00:25:02,955 --> 00:25:03,215
June: Yeah.

424
00:25:03,215 --> 00:25:05,375
It was the same way watching Burton films.

425
00:25:05,445 --> 00:25:05,735
Yeah.

426
00:25:05,775 --> 00:25:06,565
I was just wow,

427
00:25:07,790 --> 00:25:11,760
Robert: Yeah, but it's
actually an incredible process.

428
00:25:12,070 --> 00:25:16,060
we spent a year of building these,
little books and little cups and

429
00:25:16,360 --> 00:25:20,368
little sets, and we recreated the
Sistine Chapel at a fifth scale.

430
00:25:20,508 --> 00:25:23,171
And, then we animated
for another full year.

431
00:25:23,311 --> 00:25:27,600
And you've got 12 stages operating
simultaneously with, animators

432
00:25:27,610 --> 00:25:29,540
doing, two to three seconds per day.

433
00:25:29,768 --> 00:25:33,988
and just to watch the animators
work, it's so impressive.

434
00:25:34,588 --> 00:25:39,708
literally taking a photo, moving the
puppet or multiple puppets in the

435
00:25:39,708 --> 00:25:44,148
same image, and then again, and just
to watch them come to life and, To be

436
00:25:44,148 --> 00:25:48,858
able to connect to, these little, often
3D printed or, kind of clay models.

437
00:25:49,158 --> 00:25:49,938
is, yeah.

438
00:25:50,088 --> 00:25:51,828
It's what makes, cinema so magical.

439
00:25:52,518 --> 00:25:54,378
June: When it comes to, telling.

440
00:25:55,047 --> 00:25:57,954
the stories that you do as a
producer, as a filmmaker, how do

441
00:25:57,954 --> 00:26:04,354
you, ensure that they have an impact
but are also still entertaining?

442
00:26:04,704 --> 00:26:06,001
Robert: Yeah, it's a good question.

443
00:26:06,481 --> 00:26:06,601
I.

444
00:26:07,651 --> 00:26:11,857
I think I just used kind of my own,
barometer or show it to people.

445
00:26:11,957 --> 00:26:15,047
And if people are like, rolling
their eyes, it's alright.

446
00:26:15,217 --> 00:26:16,977
and, but also like knowing who it's for.

447
00:26:17,417 --> 00:26:18,257
I think that's the key.

448
00:26:18,631 --> 00:26:22,461
direct and a lot of these films I've
directed, a film called Visions for the

449
00:26:22,461 --> 00:26:28,357
Future about this Harvard law professor
named, Roberto Mangabiera Unger I knew

450
00:26:28,357 --> 00:26:33,917
that I was making this film specifically
for people that followed him, or

451
00:26:34,357 --> 00:26:35,877
specifically for people in philosophy.

452
00:26:36,657 --> 00:26:41,487
So it was okay for me to just hold
on a shot and really just let him,

453
00:26:42,027 --> 00:26:46,597
get extremely pedantic because I
knew that this wasn't for everybody

454
00:26:46,617 --> 00:26:47,787
and that was the point, Is.

455
00:26:48,972 --> 00:26:53,896
He was presenting a very high level
version of putting theory into practice

456
00:26:54,122 --> 00:26:59,586
that for people interested in this,
matter, he needed to be pedantic.

457
00:26:59,632 --> 00:26:59,992
is key.

458
00:27:00,779 --> 00:27:05,392
I just watched, Killers of a Flower Moon,
for example, and there's an opening scene

459
00:27:05,722 --> 00:27:11,912
where, They're having a conversation
in a, a taxi and next door there's like

460
00:27:11,912 --> 00:27:17,222
this race going on, but the race has
nothing to do with the conversation.

461
00:27:17,692 --> 00:27:21,982
It's just clearly to like, infuse
energy into the early part of the movie.

462
00:27:22,606 --> 00:27:26,957
there's a lot of ways to bring
entertainment into a film So I, yeah, I

463
00:27:26,957 --> 00:27:31,107
think it really is knowing your audience
and testing with your audience and, okay.

464
00:27:31,127 --> 00:27:31,947
Are they getting bored?

465
00:27:33,367 --> 00:27:35,677
maybe I need to do something about
it, maybe that entire needs to be cut.

466
00:27:35,947 --> 00:27:36,237
June: Yeah.

467
00:27:37,232 --> 00:27:39,952
So you have a lot of,
projects that are coming up.

468
00:27:40,292 --> 00:27:44,892
one of them which will be premiering
at SXSW, which is exciting.

469
00:27:45,792 --> 00:27:47,972
and that one is How to
Build a Truth Engine.

470
00:27:48,106 --> 00:27:49,106
did that project come about?

471
00:27:49,912 --> 00:27:53,932
Robert: So I was at the Movies that
Matter, film Festival in The Hague, which

472
00:27:53,932 --> 00:27:55,972
is partnered with Amnesty International.

473
00:27:56,592 --> 00:28:02,892
And I met a filmmaker there, Fritz Moser,
who made a film called The Good American.

474
00:28:04,047 --> 00:28:06,007
I was just shocked by it.

475
00:28:06,037 --> 00:28:10,417
Just the level of cinematography
and the way that the story

476
00:28:10,437 --> 00:28:12,447
was told, just phenomenal.

477
00:28:12,634 --> 00:28:16,104
And so we became friends and, a
couple projects we've talked about

478
00:28:16,104 --> 00:28:19,981
over the years about doing together
and he came to me and said, look,

479
00:28:19,981 --> 00:28:25,151
I've got this two part documentary
and I, would love your input on it.

480
00:28:25,931 --> 00:28:26,551
And I was like.

481
00:28:27,092 --> 00:28:30,552
it shouldn't be two documentaries,
it should be one documentary because

482
00:28:30,552 --> 00:28:32,712
then you have to finish both of that.

483
00:28:32,742 --> 00:28:35,976
It's and also I think you have
the subject matter for two, but

484
00:28:36,236 --> 00:28:38,296
for one it's extremely compelling.

485
00:28:38,432 --> 00:28:41,096
So I came on to, to produce then also.

486
00:28:41,976 --> 00:28:45,439
through another colleague of mine,
Amina, we brought George Clooney on.

487
00:28:45,739 --> 00:28:51,729
And, and then Fritz, really found
the story and found what this

488
00:28:51,869 --> 00:28:53,529
is in terms of disinformation.

489
00:28:53,589 --> 00:28:59,008
the film's about disinformation how
to protect us, mentally and also,

490
00:28:59,068 --> 00:29:01,374
through, journalism, fake news.

491
00:29:01,404 --> 00:29:02,644
just going rampant online.

492
00:29:03,028 --> 00:29:05,188
Fritz has made a phenomenal film.

493
00:29:05,868 --> 00:29:10,135
I think it's, I'm definitely biased,
but if I try my best to not be biased,

494
00:29:10,335 --> 00:29:13,415
I will still say, I think it's one of
the best documentaries I've ever seen.

495
00:29:13,735 --> 00:29:17,395
And, it's extremely thoughtful,
extremely compelling, and we're

496
00:29:17,475 --> 00:29:18,485
ecstatic to have it out SXSW.

497
00:29:18,485 --> 00:29:19,275
South by Southwest.

498
00:29:20,090 --> 00:29:23,140
June: I think it's especially,
great time for it, just 'cause we're

499
00:29:23,140 --> 00:29:29,380
coming up on another election year
and there's so much, misinformation

500
00:29:29,530 --> 00:29:30,980
that happens this time of year.

501
00:29:31,416 --> 00:29:31,566
Robert: Yeah.

502
00:29:31,626 --> 00:29:32,006
Big time.

503
00:29:32,501 --> 00:29:35,161
June: so I think it's definitely
a great time for this film,

504
00:29:35,535 --> 00:29:37,395
out and it's super relevant.

505
00:29:37,731 --> 00:29:38,021
Robert: Yeah.

506
00:29:38,081 --> 00:29:42,641
our goal is to premiere it in March,
obviously, at the festival, and then to

507
00:29:42,661 --> 00:29:45,081
try and have it out around the election.

508
00:29:45,626 --> 00:29:47,476
June: It's definitely, definitely needed.

509
00:29:48,136 --> 00:29:51,150
you have two other projects
that are coming up, Renner

510
00:29:51,170 --> 00:29:52,670
and The Mouse that Roared.

511
00:29:52,670 --> 00:29:53,830
Would you like to talk about those?

512
00:29:54,281 --> 00:29:57,421
Robert: Yeah, The Mouse at Roared is
with, academy Award nominated director

513
00:29:57,841 --> 00:30:04,111
Judith Elrich, and that is looking at,
she did a, A documentary prior about,

514
00:30:04,321 --> 00:30:09,288
Daniel Ellsberg, who released the
Pentagon Papers and, transformed a lot

515
00:30:09,288 --> 00:30:12,008
of how the Vietnam War was portrayed.

516
00:30:12,668 --> 00:30:17,848
And this documentary is a look at current
day whistleblowers and what it is to

517
00:30:17,848 --> 00:30:22,048
be a whistleblower, why it's important
for democracy to have whistleblowers

518
00:30:22,628 --> 00:30:24,188
and what the future may hold.

519
00:30:25,168 --> 00:30:27,878
And the other project you
mentioned is called Renner.

520
00:30:28,185 --> 00:30:33,065
This is a project that I directed
and it is, starring Frankie Muniz and

521
00:30:33,065 --> 00:30:38,145
Violet Bean and Taylor Gray, and is
about our relationship to artificial

522
00:30:38,145 --> 00:30:45,303
intelligence The goal was really to,
have it be wildly entertaining, but

523
00:30:45,493 --> 00:30:51,993
also, just have us re acknowledge not
only, potential pitfalls, but also the

524
00:30:52,003 --> 00:30:54,233
value of just human to human experience.

525
00:30:54,916 --> 00:31:00,066
So the movie is about a guy, Renner
who is trying to get the courage,

526
00:31:00,276 --> 00:31:04,000
through this self-help AI that he
develops, trying to get the courage

527
00:31:04,020 --> 00:31:05,680
to meet this woman across the hall.

528
00:31:06,340 --> 00:31:12,246
And in creating this AI, he accidentally
programs his mother into the AI.

529
00:31:12,586 --> 00:31:17,660
And so it wreck havoc with the
relationship and with his, but yeah.

530
00:31:17,961 --> 00:31:21,251
It's more on the entertainment
side, than sheer, look at AI.

531
00:31:21,251 --> 00:31:22,031
But certainly both.

532
00:31:22,251 --> 00:31:26,721
June: there's gonna be a lot of discussion
even more when it comes to AI just 'cause

533
00:31:26,921 --> 00:31:30,901
Even, the program I'm using right now
to record this has a lot of AI in it.

534
00:31:30,901 --> 00:31:35,561
And they're like, that you can use
to even simulate your own voice.

535
00:31:35,561 --> 00:31:37,701
And I'm like, what is that?

536
00:31:37,701 --> 00:31:38,221
Makes me nervous.

537
00:31:39,001 --> 00:31:42,461
So I always think that, It's a
discussion that we need to continually

538
00:31:42,461 --> 00:31:46,541
have, especially 'cause it's come
up in, the writer's agreements.

539
00:31:46,691 --> 00:31:49,311
It's come up in Hollywood
about, what is AI?

540
00:31:49,451 --> 00:31:50,831
How much of it can we use?

541
00:31:50,851 --> 00:31:54,271
How much can it integrate with our lives
for it ends up taking over our life.

542
00:31:54,531 --> 00:31:58,581
um, know, I'm excited
to, see this the movie.

543
00:31:58,866 --> 00:31:59,156
Robert: Yeah.

544
00:31:59,470 --> 00:32:00,290
and I think it also.

545
00:32:01,245 --> 00:32:05,665
The movie is also just a look at
the limits and sort of the confines.

546
00:32:06,605 --> 00:32:13,105
And, a professor at Berkeley I worked
with, who was very influential, to me.

547
00:32:13,105 --> 00:32:15,045
and this, was very much, in memory of him.

548
00:32:15,815 --> 00:32:17,215
it seems Hubert Dreyfuss.

549
00:32:17,915 --> 00:32:21,498
he wrote a book called, What Computers
Can't Do, and I think there is.

550
00:32:22,333 --> 00:32:28,173
There are considerations for AI, but
at the same time it can only go so far.

551
00:32:28,523 --> 00:32:32,336
There's a lot that can
be human, directed AI.

552
00:32:33,016 --> 00:32:35,820
I can go in and say, okay, I
want a cat, you on a rocket ship.

553
00:32:35,820 --> 00:32:36,623
And do it.

554
00:32:36,643 --> 00:32:39,703
But to be able to generate
that, to be able to, you.

555
00:32:41,303 --> 00:32:43,523
To put context, to put
relevance around it.

556
00:32:43,993 --> 00:32:45,483
That is something that's human.

557
00:32:45,623 --> 00:32:51,353
And essentially what, Dreyfus kind
of put was that the thing that's

558
00:32:51,593 --> 00:32:58,153
distinctly human is to be able to
select in this huge data set what is

559
00:32:58,153 --> 00:32:59,753
important and what should be ignored.

560
00:33:00,016 --> 00:33:05,740
And if we look at, the whole history of
Siri, if any of us hired Siri to be our.

561
00:33:06,505 --> 00:33:08,445
our intern, even they would be fired.

562
00:33:09,345 --> 00:33:15,090
So so it's, I think, ultimately
humans are always behind these things.

563
00:33:15,674 --> 00:33:18,986
and as far as, regulation, how.

564
00:33:20,011 --> 00:33:23,295
Humans push these things and in what
directions, know, it's important

565
00:33:24,075 --> 00:33:27,195
and, and certainly, for the
protection of jobs, it's important.

566
00:33:27,815 --> 00:33:30,395
and so lots of conversation to be had.

567
00:33:30,935 --> 00:33:34,095
but I think as far as this,
ultimate place that all these

568
00:33:34,095 --> 00:33:35,935
things end up, it may not actually.

569
00:33:37,526 --> 00:33:41,638
June: So with every interview I
do, I always end with the same

570
00:33:42,068 --> 00:33:44,203
five kind of rapid fire questions.

571
00:33:44,589 --> 00:33:44,969
you ready?

572
00:33:45,298 --> 00:33:45,888
Robert: Let's do it.

573
00:33:46,158 --> 00:33:50,375
June: All right, name one TV show,
film, or a podcast that has had

574
00:33:50,695 --> 00:33:52,535
a profound effect on you and why.

575
00:33:52,969 --> 00:33:55,598
Robert: would, the film would
be Schindler's List and.

576
00:33:56,557 --> 00:34:00,185
As far as cinema, it's
just harrowing and poetic.

577
00:34:00,405 --> 00:34:05,785
And there's something about
understanding why people do terrible

578
00:34:05,805 --> 00:34:11,265
things that is so important so that
those things don't happen again.

579
00:34:11,759 --> 00:34:14,689
that for me is a movie
that, I think about often.

580
00:34:15,081 --> 00:34:18,371
June: It's such a
beautiful and moving movie.

581
00:34:18,548 --> 00:34:18,838
Robert: Yeah,

582
00:34:19,150 --> 00:34:22,200
June: What is a cause that
is closest to your heart?

583
00:34:22,917 --> 00:34:26,497
Robert: not necessarily
environmentalism, although that's

584
00:34:26,497 --> 00:34:29,017
it, but it's more carbon capture.

585
00:34:29,417 --> 00:34:32,797
I'm very interested in how we can.

586
00:34:34,192 --> 00:34:39,582
Pull carbon out of the atmosphere
by, planting more trees or, just

587
00:34:39,602 --> 00:34:41,928
all the ways that you can yeah,
just pull it out of the air.

588
00:34:42,148 --> 00:34:47,608
I did the math at one point of, okay,
if we wanted to get to, 350, parts

589
00:34:47,708 --> 00:34:51,288
per million in the atmosphere, how
many trees would we have to plant?

590
00:34:52,148 --> 00:34:54,568
And, it came to about a trillion trees.

591
00:34:54,899 --> 00:34:55,119
June: Wow.

592
00:34:55,428 --> 00:34:57,648
Robert: But you can plan
to tree for a dollar.

593
00:34:57,887 --> 00:35:01,851
and $2 trillion was released into
the US economy, during Covid.

594
00:35:02,185 --> 00:35:05,033
So you look at that and you're
like, oh, this problem is solvable.

595
00:35:05,173 --> 00:35:07,873
We just aren't there yet, or
we don't want to be there yet.

596
00:35:08,448 --> 00:35:09,768
for me it's very fascinating.

597
00:35:09,768 --> 00:35:11,808
There's all kinds of
different technologies and.

598
00:35:12,863 --> 00:35:17,657
Ironically, all of the ones are are
organic that are I think, most worthwhile.

599
00:35:18,071 --> 00:35:21,919
but there's certainly historical
warming of earth, and, the

600
00:35:21,919 --> 00:35:23,412
acceleration humans are, doing.

601
00:35:23,592 --> 00:35:27,282
But there are ways too in
which, that can be moderated.

602
00:35:27,809 --> 00:35:28,909
June: If you could name.

603
00:35:29,929 --> 00:35:33,469
One nonprofit to lift up
right now, what would it be?

604
00:35:33,996 --> 00:35:34,896
Robert: That's a good question.

605
00:35:35,176 --> 00:35:41,249
I would say the SIE society we have a
lot we are wanting to do, not necessarily

606
00:35:41,279 --> 00:35:44,939
like financially, we are volunteers
and putting in our own thing, but.

607
00:35:46,034 --> 00:35:50,224
there is really so much we can do together
around impact and if we have more people

608
00:35:50,604 --> 00:35:55,594
coming together and we are the place
to, bring people together across sector.

609
00:35:56,294 --> 00:35:58,234
And I think that was really
proven at the conference.

610
00:35:58,734 --> 00:36:02,454
that's the goal is really have
everybody who thinks about impact

611
00:36:03,234 --> 00:36:07,771
no matter, where they come from,
aligning around specific topic areas.

612
00:36:07,911 --> 00:36:08,331
That's.

613
00:36:09,151 --> 00:36:10,791
I don't think it could better than that.

614
00:36:11,222 --> 00:36:11,862
June: I love the plug.

615
00:36:12,022 --> 00:36:12,382
I love it.

616
00:36:13,889 --> 00:36:16,629
if you could collaborate
with anyone, who would it be?

617
00:36:17,169 --> 00:36:18,149
Robert: That's a good question.

618
00:36:18,549 --> 00:36:19,949
I think it would be Joaquin Phoenix.

619
00:36:20,909 --> 00:36:28,196
I think he is a phenomenal actor and,
as a director, that would be a just an

620
00:36:28,196 --> 00:36:31,796
extraordinary experience collaborate
with him as director actor relationship.

621
00:36:32,212 --> 00:36:34,712
June: And the last one,
which is a little bit silly.

622
00:36:35,132 --> 00:36:38,832
if you could choose one song to
play every time you walked into a

623
00:36:38,832 --> 00:36:40,392
room, what would you choose and why?

624
00:36:40,827 --> 00:36:45,417
Robert: So Easy, it's a, it'd
be my first song, by Jay-Z.

625
00:36:46,247 --> 00:36:51,087
It's, yeah, I've listened to the
Black album and now 444, probably

626
00:36:52,417 --> 00:36:53,537
thousands and thousands of times.

627
00:36:53,917 --> 00:36:55,417
So, yeah, it'd be my first song.

628
00:36:55,417 --> 00:36:56,017
There's a lot of.

629
00:36:56,522 --> 00:36:58,542
strength and and insight in that track.

630
00:36:58,720 --> 00:36:59,210
June: It's amazing.

631
00:36:59,354 --> 00:37:04,587
thank you to everyone who is listening and
thank you, Robert, for coming on the show.

632
00:37:05,627 --> 00:37:05,917
Robert: Yeah.

633
00:37:05,917 --> 00:37:06,677
Thanks so much, June.

634
00:37:08,037 --> 00:37:10,417
/ Thank you for joining me
today on this episode.

635
00:37:11,007 --> 00:37:15,037
Story for Good is created, hosted,
and produced by June Neely.

636
00:37:15,607 --> 00:37:18,807
For more information about the
organizations or projects talked

637
00:37:18,817 --> 00:37:22,477
about in the show, or for media
and sponsorship inquiries,

638
00:37:22,917 --> 00:37:25,597
visit us at storyforgoodpod.com.

639
00:37:25,617 --> 00:37:29,477
If you enjoyed this episode, please
like and subscribe to the show, and

640
00:37:29,487 --> 00:37:30,837
be sure to share it with a friend.